Hansa Bergwall & WeCroak: Mortality, Mindfulness & the Right Angle Moment That Breaks the OCD Loop

Samantha Bray, LCSW (00:00)

Hi, welcome to OCD Insights. This is Samantha Bray. I'm so glad you're here. What if thinking about death five times a day, every day, could actually make you happier? It sounds counterintuitive, but that's exactly what a small nation in the Himalayas has been saying for centuries. And it turns out there's a fascinating parallel to how we treat OCD.

Today I'm sitting down with Hansa Bergwall, co-creator of the We Croak app, a mindfulness tool built on the ancient practice of mortality awareness. We talk about exposure therapy, the power of the right angle moment, and why facing death might be one of the most life-giving things you can do.

I hope you stay with me. There's a lot we cover. It's very interesting. Now I introduce you to Hansa Bergwall.

Intro (01:11)

Welcome to OCD Insights, where we break down the complexities of OCD with compassion, clarity, and hope. Whether you're seeking answers, support, or a connection, you're not alone. So let's dive right in with our host, Samantha Bray. This is OCD Insights.

OCD Insights (01:29)

Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm just super excited. Let me take a deep breath to have you on the show.

Hansa Bergwall (01:39)

Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here.

OCD Insights (01:43)

So welcome to OCD Insights. we educate and inspire and instill hope in people that may be dealing with or have a loved one dealing with OCD. And I reached out to you when I found your app because I have been referring your app out to clients for six. Maybe seven years? Has it been that long? Since 2018, I think.

Hansa Bergwall (02:15)

Yeah. We Croak, the app, launched in the summer of 2016. Hold on, 2017? It was around then. I know I was working on it for a couple of years. that's, so it's been around a long time now.

OCD Insights (02:37)

Yeah, time has flown. I do know it was before the pandemic. And I had just opened a group therapy practice in Austin, Texas, which has exploded in population, right? And I had a client that was skeptical on learning meditation. So I thought, 10% happier with Dan Harris would be the most awesome thing for him to check out. And then he came back and told me, I think because you're on Dan Harris's podcast, he heard about you.

Hansa Bergwall (03:11)

Yeah. Yeah. The 10% happier.

OCD Insights (03:14)

And he, yeah, 10% happier. I'm a complete fan of Dan Harris's work too, spreading the word on meditation and its benefits to that population in particular that are really educated, intelligent, but skeptical about these things.

Hansa Bergwall (03:31)

Yeah, yeah, I love that perspective. Yeah, it's, it's funny. We, me and my co founder were inspired by ancient wisdom, both in the East and the West. Stoicism in the West has a lot of, you know, what they call death salience exercises, where you use, you know, the fact of mortality to gather insight. And then there's also a lot that come out of Buddhism.

OCD Insights (03:35)

Yeah.

Hansa Bergwall (03:57)

and meditation traditions. that's why Dan Harris of the 10% Happier was interested in talking to me because he's all about promoting the benefits of meditation. And the WeCroak app, we took inspiration from a Bhutanese folks saying, which is a tiny nation in the Himalayas, that to be a happier person, just consider your mortality five times per day. we were coming at it just from, these are things people have been saying and doing for thousands of years, both in the East and the West and found valuable and didn't have a thought in our head about any modern modalities of psychological care or these sorts of things. Had no intention of folding into any of that. But meanwhile, this is not the first time that people with real degrees in psychology or therapy and mental health areas have told me that they've recommended the app because, know, it's basically five times a day, it's incessant. It's a lot like cognitive behavioral therapy, where it's just a lot of exposure to something that there might be a fear around, can sort of slowly break that down. You could probably tell me better than I could explain how it fits in with some of these modern ideas of how it might benefit someone with a fear of death or OCD, where that's sort of at the center.

OCD Insights (05:28)

Yeah, definitely fits in. so cognitive behavioral therapy is a huge umbrella. It's got something like 50 plus tools under it. And not all of those tools are really helpful, specifically for OCD, but many are. And one is what you said is exposure work. Exposure and response prevention is the full name or ritual prevention. What I found over the course of my career, and I worked primarily with OCD, is that it's frequent, willing attempts to go towards what scares you that helps decrease the activity around that trigger or activating event or thought. And so, not all people with OCD have this particular theme, but for those that don't know and kind of assume it's all about washing your hands or keeping things clean, that is a myth. There are many, many themes that are universal. And one is what we call existential theme of OCD. And that does go in that realm of what happens when we die? we be able to meet our loved ones if we don't do the right thing here on earth? I got to do the right perfect thing here. Can't make a mistake right now or I might not be reunited with my loved one in heaven. That is one example of a million different ways it can morph. But when you carry any of the OCD themes all the way through, and you do a technique in CBT called the downward spiral. If I don't get my hands perfectly clean, what's the worst that could happen? I might carry a germ and get someone else sick. And then what's the worst that could happen? Where does it always lead? They could die, right? Or the other place it often will lead, if we don't push it to the nth degree, is I'm going to do something that could cause harm to someone else or myself. And if I don't die or they don't die, at the least I'm going to be alone and isolated and without community, which for humans, you might as well be dead, right? So I feel like this app is so appropriate for the exact reasons that you said. It's five times a day. I mean, I've been using it for years. Five times a day, random times. Random is key, right? Because you don't want anything in OCD to become ritualistic or compulsive. So randomized, frequent, just reminders. And it's not about flooding yourself. It's just a gentle reminder. And I love it for that. Have you ever heard that before that anyone else has been using it for this purpose?

Hansa Bergwall (08:28)

Yeah, I have. And like I said, was not designed for this. It was designed on totally different other ideas of philosophy, practical philosophy. And I mean, I can just tell you the story.

OCD Insights (08:41)

That's awesome. It's like you put a seed out and you don't even know what it's going to bloom into. And look at this.

Hansa Bergwall (08:47)

Yeah, so I have a lot of grief in my story, not OCD, but that's why I became interested in death salience meditations. and I was getting into meditation and like 2015, 2016 and loving it. So of course I started reading a lot of books about it and a lot of, you know, deep tracks as well. And one of things that I read was this Buddhist sage from the 15th century, Buddhaghosa, who was like, of the 40 kinds of meditation, only two are always beneficial. The cultivation of kindness and the recollection of death. And I thought, that's bizarre. Like, I don't know anyone who's doing death meditation. I've heard of meta meditation, these kindness ones. It's a little touchy feely for me, but I'll try it. And then I'm like, and I better try this other kind too, if it's that important, but it's been forgotten and it's sort of translation over to the Western world. And because of my own history with, you know, having a mother that passed away when I was a child, it just, you know, really helped with everything I was going through. And I started trying different kinds of which there are many. And I came across the Bhutanese formulation, which is important because it's not for monks who are meditating, you know, 18 hours a day. It's for everyone who's trying to lead a normal life. And they're just like, do it often. And I thought, okay, I'll try this. And I did. And I loved it. And I quickly discovered how hard it is to do it five times a day if you are just running through life.

OCD Insights (10:17)

Do it often.

Hansa Bergwall (10:26)

You know, it's kind of like trying to remember to do 10 pushups five times a day. It's just like, might only take a minute each time, but like get yourself to like, remember to do it or like stop yourself from what you're doing. It's actually really difficult. and

OCD Insights (10:40)

Yeah.

Hansa Bergwall (10:42)

you know, so then I had these ideas around, you know, having it be an app on my phone that would remind me. And I came up with some, you know, just fun design things, like the randomization, which is like, yeah, a reminder can happen anytime. Just like death, that's another reminder. Yeah, yeah, well, there's this idea of like death can happen at any time, which is an important, one of the important meditations that I would read in these like, you know, Buddhist death meditations from thousands of years ago. And so I'm like, well, then the notifications should happen at any time, you know, that's an extra reminder. So I got lucky, I guess, that

OCD Insights (10:59)

That just came to you intuitively. That's cool.

Hansa Bergwall (11:04)

I could also say that the Stoics in Rome had this idea of amor fati, and that's really important to a lot of my approach to things. And amor fati is basically, it's often translated as love of fate. And what it means is like, you're given this finite amount of time on this planet, and the things that happen to you are the conditions that you have to work with. And you can have this relationship to it where you can love this, you know, this exact life you've been given, these conditions you've been given, and make the most of it. And that's the other inspiration from Stoicism.

OCD Insights (11:36)

So your app is really steeped in so much ancient wisdom from both the East and the West. And I think that's what makes it so powerful. It's pulling these concepts that have been proven over centuries of time. And then packaging it in this beautiful, accessible modern way. And the research is supporting it now, right? Like things like app-based meditation or mortality awareness is actually helping people.

Hansa Bergwall (12:01)

Yeah, yeah. Well, there is research coming out now that is very positive. I always say that the ancient wisdom came first and then we kind of develop the research afterward to validate what they already knew. But yes, there's research that shows that brief reminders of mortality can boost psychological wellbeing, they can increase prosocial behavior, they can help with anxiety and depression to name a few.

OCD Insights (12:30)

That's beautiful. And I think that's really important because, you know, a lot of my audience is very cerebral, very educated, and they need the data and the research to feel like this is a legitimate tool. So I'm really glad you brought that up. I do want to ask you about something that you mentioned in a previous conversation that you had talked about, and that's the concept of like, when was it? Like right angle moment or something like that? And I think that is so profound for people with OCD.

Hansa Bergwall (13:05)

Oh yes, so that's coming from the Buddhists as well. So the idea is like, in our minds, we're constantly creating these stories and narratives and we're flowing along with them. Most of the time, we're on autopilot. We're not aware that we're even in a narrative. And so the idea of this right angle moment is when you become aware when that story is playing, or that narrative is playing. It's that moment you notice you're in a story. And if you notice you're in a story, then you have a choice in that moment. You can choose to continue with that story or not. But before you notice that you're in the story, you have no choice. You're just, you're swept along by it. And so it's just this incredibly powerful thing that you can practice, which is noticing when your mind has been captured by a story.

OCD Insights (13:56)

Yes. And I think for people with OCD, that right angle moment is everything. So much of OCD is you have this thought, let's say you're walking down the street and you notice someone across the street and you think, what if I'm attracted to them? Or what if I made a mistake? Or what if I'm a bad person? And then the brain goes, oh my gosh, what does that mean about me? That's so scary. And then what follows is either rumination, or obsessive thinking, or compulsions, in the form of checking behaviors, reassurance seeking, which is a form of compulsion. We're trying to manage that anxiety. But if you could catch it at the right angle moment, that moment right when you notice that you've had the thought or the mind has gone to that place, if you just don't engage with it, if you don't ruminate on it, if you don't do the compulsion, and you just notice it and let it pass, you're practicing a totally different skill set. You're practicing awareness. You're practicing acceptance. You're practicing willingness to have the thought without needing to do something about it.

Hansa Bergwall (15:05)

Exactly. And that's the foundational skill. And not only that, but it's a skill you can get better at. It's not like if your thoughts are dark today, you're stuck. You can absolutely practice becoming better at noticing the moment you enter into a story.

OCD Insights (15:22)

Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the things that I really love is that the We Croak app becomes kind of a built-in practice for that awareness. So you're getting these notifications five times a day. And if you're using it intentionally, each time you get that notification, you're pausing. You're stepping out of whatever narrative you're in. You're stepping into the present moment, and you're reflecting on the fact that you're mortal. And in doing that, you're literally building that muscle of noticing.

Hansa Bergwall (15:53)

Yes, and that's actually a beautiful way to think about it because it's kind of like a training ground, you know? Because you're practicing with something that's a little lighter. You're practicing with the idea of mortality, you're practicing with noticing and being in the present moment. And then as you build that skill in a lighter context, you can then apply it to thoughts that are scary, thoughts that are intrusive, thoughts that make you uncomfortable. Because you've already built that foundational skill in a practice ground with this lighter version of it.

OCD Insights (16:32)

I love that metaphor. So it's like you're training in the gym and then you go out and you run a marathon. You're building that muscle in a safe place before you use it out in the world.

Hansa Bergwall (16:42)

Exactly. Exactly.

OCD Insights (16:46)

That's beautiful. So I do want to ask you about the intersection of, of mortality awareness and kindness. So on your app, you have these beautiful quotes. I've been using We Croak since I think you launched it. And every single quote is carefully chosen. You've curated them by hand. I love that. They range from poets to philosophers to spiritual teachers. And then the app, you also have this practice of loving kindness that's built in. So can you talk about how mortality awareness and kindness are connected?

Hansa Bergwall (17:21)

Yeah, so this comes back to that Buddhist wisdom again. So Buddhaghosa said, again, of the 40 kinds of meditation, only two are always beneficial. The cultivation of kindness and the recollection of death. And so he's saying that these two meditations are so powerful and beneficial that they're always going to help you. And the connection is that when you become aware of your mortality, when you really sit with the fact that you're going to die, and this person in front of you is going to die, and we're all going to die, it really softens your heart. It makes it so much easier to be kind to people because you start to see the preciousness and the fragility and the precious shortness of everyone's life, including your own.

OCD Insights (18:06)

Yeah, that's beautiful. So it's like when you're aware of your own mortality, you also become more compassionate for others' mortality and their struggles.

Hansa Bergwall (18:15)

Yes, exactly. And when you understand how short and precious this life is, petty things fall away. You start to care less about what people think about you. You start to be nicer to people because you realize we're all in this together and we're all going to be gone.

OCD Insights (18:31)

Yeah, I think that's so important, especially for people that struggle with OCD. Because a lot of the time, particularly social anxiety OCD or harm OCD, there's so much fear about what other people are thinking about you, or fear that you're going to hurt somebody. And when you really let that sink in, that we're all here for such a short time and we're all trying to do our best, and we're all going to die anyway, it really puts things in perspective.

Hansa Bergwall (19:00)

Yeah, yeah, it does. And I think if you really get that into your bones, that you're going to die, and this is temporary, it kind of flips your relationship with fear. Because fear is usually about, you know, holding onto something. It's about trying to maintain control. It's about trying to prevent something bad from happening. But if you really understand that you don't have control and that impermanence is a fact, then it kind of flips the whole dynamic. It's like, well, I can't control this anyway, so why don't I just do my best to be kind and to show up for people? And that's a totally different relationship to fear.

OCD Insights (19:33)

I love that. And I think that ties into what we talked about earlier with the right angle moment. So if you can catch yourself, you can catch that moment when fear is starting to arise, and before you act on it, before you try to control it, you remember, oh, wait, I'm mortal, this is impermanent, I can't control it anyway. So I can just let this fear pass through me without doing anything about it.

Hansa Bergwall (19:57)

Yes, absolutely. And that's the freedom. That's where the freedom comes from. Because the freedom isn't about having no fear. It's about having a different relationship to the fear. It's about noticing the fear and not doing what the fear tells you to do.

OCD Insights (20:16)

That's so good. That's so good. So I want to talk a little bit about people who might be new to meditation and especially the concept of mortality meditation, because it can sound a little scary or dark to someone who's not familiar with it. Can you talk about what the actual experience is like for people when they first start using the app and exploring these ideas?

Hansa Bergwall (20:41)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's important to address because I do think there's a version of this practice that could be harmful or re-traumatizing for some people. But the way that the Bhutanese practice it, and the way I've tried to embody it in the app, is it's actually much lighter than people think. Because the point is not to try to scare yourself into being a better person or to wallow in dark thoughts. The point is simply to become aware of the fact of your mortality as a gentle reminder. And a lot of people find that it's actually very peaceful and clarifying and very freeing, once they get past the initial fear of it. And I think the reason for that is because deep down we all know this is true. We all know we're going to die, but we spend so much of our lives trying not to think about it. And so this practice gives you a chance to just look at it directly and see that it's okay. That it's not as scary as you thought it was going to be.

OCD Insights (21:38)

Yeah, I think that's really important because I think people might think of it as, you know, some dark, morbid practice, but really it's about freedom. It's about liberation. It's about understanding your life in a deeper way. And for people with OCD, specifically those with existential OCD or death obsessions, I think it's interesting because the practice is almost like a form of exposure therapy in disguise. It's like, you're not trying to avoid the thought. You're not trying to reassure yourself that you're not going to die. You're just looking at it head on and going, okay, I'm mortal. That's a fact. What now? And in doing that, you're actually reducing the fear.

Hansa Bergwall (22:18)

Exactly. And I think that's the insight. Yeah, it's like, once you've looked at it and said, okay, I'm going to die. That's a fact. What are you going to do about it? And the answer is you're going to live. And you're going to live as well as you possibly can. You're going to treat people kindly. You're going to make the most of your time. You're going to invest in what matters to you. And that's it. That's the whole thing right there. And so suddenly the fear becomes a teacher. It becomes something that helps you live better.

OCD Insights (22:46)

I love that. And I also want to address, you know, there might be somebody listening who's like, oh my gosh, I have death anxiety, I have existential OCD, I don't want to use an app that reminds me about death five times a day. How would you speak to that person?

Hansa Bergwall (23:01)

Yeah, I think that's a fair concern. And I would say that there are people for whom this practice might not be the right entry point. And I think what I always encourage people to do is to work with a professional who can help them understand whether this is the right practice for them right now. That's my biggest recommendation, because I think context matters so much. And where someone is in their healing journey matters. And there might be someone who's in a really acute phase of death anxiety and this might not be the right tool for them right now. And that's okay. There are lots of tools out there. And I think if someone is in a really acute anxiety phase, the best thing to do is to work with a therapist.

OCD Insights (23:45)

That's such good advice. And I think that's important because not every tool works for every person at every stage of their healing. I mean, I've had clients with death anxiety, and we had to kind of work through other things first before we got to a place where we could even introduce mortality awareness as a practice. And then once they were more stable and had more capacity to handle it, it was incredibly liberating for them.

Hansa Bergwall (24:08)

Yes. And I think that's where like, having a good therapist is so important. Because a good therapist can kind of help shepherd you through the different phases. And like, I don't claim to be a therapist at all, you know. I'm someone who's interested in practical philosophy and I've made this app. But I think it's really important that people who are struggling with these things work with someone like you.

OCD Insights (24:27)

Well, I really appreciate that. And I love it so much that you've built in this beautiful quote practice that can stand alone, right? Like someone could use the quotes without doing the full meditation. Or someone could do the loving kindness meditation without doing the death recollection. So I think that's really wise design. You're offering options that allow people to meet themselves where they are.

Hansa Bergwall (24:52)

Yeah, yeah. And that was very intentional. You know, I wanted to create something that had options for different entry points. And I think that the quotes are powerful in and of themselves. And the loving kindness practice is powerful in and of itself. And so I wanted people to be able to just pick what resonates with them right now. And if the death recollection doesn't resonate with you right now, that's okay. Just try one of the other things.

OCD Insights (25:14)

Yeah, I think that's beautiful. So I want to ask you about your background in philosophy. Where did your interest in philosophy come from and how has it shaped your work?

Hansa Bergwall (25:25)

Yeah, so that's a really interesting question. I didn't study philosophy formally in my academic training. My background is actually in engineering. I went to school for electrical engineering. And so I was more of a technical person growing up. But then I had a series of life experiences that kind of pushed me away from that pure technical focus and more towards thinking about life and meaning and how to live well. And I was particularly influenced by a book called "A Guide to the Good Life" by William Irvine. And that book kind of cracked me open in a lot of ways. And I started reading a lot more philosophy. And then I started reading about Buddhism. And then I started meditating. And all of that together kind of led me to want to create something that would help people think more deeply about how they want to live their lives.

OCD Insights (26:20)

I love that. So it sounds like you had a personal transformation, and then that personal transformation led to creating the app. Is that fair?

Hansa Bergwall (26:28)

Yeah, that's fair. And I think that's what makes it authentic, you know? Like, I wasn't approaching this from an academic standpoint or from a clinical standpoint. I was approaching it from a place of personal discovery and personal transformation. And I think that authenticity is what resonates with people. I think people can tell when something is genuine and when it's not.

OCD Insights (26:49)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's really important in the wellness space, because there's so much stuff out there that feels kind of commercialized and inauthentic. And I think what you've created with We Croak is something that feels really genuine and grounded in these ancient practices. And I think that's why people respond to it so well.

Hansa Bergwall (27:09)

Thank you. Yeah, I think that's right. And also, you know, I think the fact that I'm not a clinician, I think that's actually an asset in some ways, because I'm not trying to make it fit into a clinical framework. I'm just trying to offer what I think is valuable from these ancient traditions and let people use it however they see fit.

OCD Insights (27:28)

Right. So I'm curious, you mentioned earlier that you had some personal experiences that led you to be interested in mortality meditation. Do you feel comfortable sharing what that was?

Hansa Bergwall (27:40)

Yeah, so I lost my mother when I was a child. She passed away when I was about nine years old. And that was a really formative experience for me, because suddenly I realized that people that you love can be gone. And it wasn't something I had really thought about before that. And so I spent a lot of years kind of running from that knowledge and trying not to think about it. And then as I got older and started exploring philosophy and meditation, I realized that the way to heal from that grief was not to run from it, but to turn toward it and to explore it more deeply. And that's what led me to these death meditation practices. And through doing that, I've been able to kind of reconcile my grief and turn it into something that's meaningful.

OCD Insights (28:39)

Wow, thank you for sharing that. I think that takes a lot of courage. And I think your willingness to turn toward your grief and to transform it into something that helps other people is really beautiful. And I think that's why this work resonates so deeply, because it comes from that place of authentic human experience.

Hansa Bergwall (28:59)

Thank you. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think grief is something that unites all of us. Like, everyone has experienced loss or will experience loss. And I think when we can share our experiences around that, we realize that we're not alone in it. And that's really healing.

OCD Insights (29:16)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what makes this such powerful work. So I want to ask you, you know, you've been working on this for several years now. What have you learned? What have been some of the most surprising things that people have told you about their experience with the We Croak app?

Hansa Bergwall (29:36)

Yeah, so I think one of the most surprising and beautiful things is that people have told me that thinking about their death has made them happier. And that sounds counterintuitive, but it's true. And people have said things like, I started being nicer to my family. I started pursuing my passion project. I started being more present. I started worrying less about things that don't matter. And so people are actually using it in the way that I hoped they would use it, which is as a tool to help them live better.

OCD Insights (30:09)

That's beautiful. And I think that's such a powerful thing to hear, especially in a world where we're often running so fast that we don't stop to think about what actually matters. And this app is kind of forcing that pause.

Hansa Bergwall (30:23)

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one of the most valuable things about it is that it's a pattern interrupt. You're going through your day, you're caught up in your to-do list, you're worried about what people think about you, and then suddenly you get this notification. And it's like, hold on. You're mortal. Your time is finite. Do you want to spend it this way? And it kind of brings you back to what matters.

OCD Insights (30:48)

I love that. So I do want to ask you about some of the features that you've built into the We Croak app that I think are really clever. So the quotes, the randomized notifications, the loving kindness practice. What about the soundscapes? Can you talk about how you chose the soundscapes?

Hansa Bergwall (31:06)

Yeah, so the soundscapes are something that I wanted to include because I think they add to the experience. They help create a certain mood and a certain atmosphere. And I wanted them to be kind of universal and peaceful, but also interesting and engaging. So I worked with a sound designer to create these soundscapes that are meant to evoke a sense of calm and peace. And I think the idea is that when you get a notification, you hear the soundscape, and it kind of signals to you, okay, this is a moment for you to pause and to reflect. And I think that's a really important part of the experience.

OCD Insights (31:43)

Yeah, I think that's great. The audio experience is so important. So let me ask you this. If someone's listening right now and they're thinking about trying the We Croak app, what would you say to them? What would be your pitch for why they should give it a try?

Hansa Bergwall (31:58)

Yeah, I would say, you know, this is a tool that's been refined over thousands of years. These are practices that people have been doing for thousands of years. And we've just packaged it in a modern way that fits with your phone and your modern life. And I think it's worth a try. The barrier to entry is very low. You can try it for free. It only takes a minute each time. And I think you might be surprised by what you discover about yourself and about what matters to you. And if it doesn't work for you, that's okay. There are lots of other tools out there. But I think if you're curious about your own mortality and about how you want to live your life, this is a really good place to start.

OCD Insights (32:40)

I love that. And I think that's really important. Not everything is going to be for everyone. And I think you've built something that's really accessible and low pressure. So I want to ask you about your coaching program that you have. Can you tell me about what you're offering with the coaching?

Hansa Bergwall (32:57)

Yeah, so I have a coaching program that goes deeper into some of these ideas. So if someone is interested in diving deeper into practical philosophy, into Stoicism, into Buddhist philosophy, into mortality awareness, I have a coaching program that you can explore. And the coaching program is designed to help people think more deeply about how they want to live their lives and to help them implement some of these practices in a more structured way. And I also have a Substack where I write about some of these ideas. And I think people who are interested in going deeper can kind of explore different entry points into this work.

OCD Insights (33:34)

That's great. And I think it's wonderful that you have these different access points for people, because not everyone is ready to commit to a coaching program. Some people just want to try the app. Some people want to read your Substack. Some people want to do the coaching. So I think that's really smart.

Hansa Bergwall (33:51)

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the whole point. Like, meet people where they are and offer different entry points. And as they get more interested and more committed, they can dive deeper. But there's no pressure to do anything more than just trying the app if that's what you want to do.

OCD Insights (34:06)

Yeah. And I think for someone with OCD or anxiety, I love that you're offering these low-pressure options, because sometimes anxiety can make people feel like they have to commit to things or they have to do things in a certain way. And I think your approach is much more gentle and flexible.

Hansa Bergwall (34:26)

Yeah, and I think that's right. And I think it's important to recognize that different people are in different places in their healing journey. And what works for one person at one stage might not work for another person at a different stage. And I think that's okay. And I think the goal is just to offer tools that people can use to help them live better and to help them find more meaning and more joy in their lives.

OCD Insights (34:50)

Absolutely. So I want to ask you about something that I think is really important. When you're thinking about using mortality meditation or mortality awareness in your life, what are some of the potential pitfalls or challenges that people might face? And how can they navigate them?

Hansa Bergwall (35:10)

Yeah, I think one of the biggest challenges is that people might use it in a way that's not helpful. Like, they might go too deep too fast. They might try to use it when they're in an acute state of anxiety or depression. And I think that's where working with a professional is really important. And I think the other challenge is that people might use it in a way that becomes compulsive or obsessive. Like, they might start thinking about death all the time, and it might not be in a healthy way. And I think that's where discernment is really important. And that's where I think a therapist can really help. Because a therapist can help you understand whether this is a healthy use of the practice or whether it's becoming something that's not helpful for you.

OCD Insights (35:58)

That's really important. And I think that's something that we need to address because there are people with OCD who might use this in a way that actually reinforces their OCD. Like, if someone has death obsessions, and they're using an app that reminds them about death five times a day, they might actually be ruminating or getting stuck in that. So it's really important for people to work with a professional if they have OCD.

Hansa Bergwall (36:28)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really important point. And I would say to anyone who has OCD, or anyone who's struggling with anxiety or depression, really consider working with a professional who understands these conditions. Because I think a professional can help you navigate these tools in a way that's actually helpful for you rather than harmful.

OCD Insights (36:50)

Yeah, absolutely. So I want to ask you, Hansa, as we're wrapping up here, what is something that you want to leave our listeners with? What is the most important thing that you want people to know about mortality, about death, about your app, or about living a good life?

Hansa Bergwall (37:11)

You know, I think the most important thing is that your time is finite. You don't know how much you have left. And so the question is, what are you going to do with the time that you have? And I think if you can answer that question in a way that feels authentic and true to you, then you're on the right path. And I think the We Croak app is just a tool to help you answer that question. It's not the answer itself. And I think that's what's important to remember. The app is just a practice. The app is just a tool. And the real work is in your life. The real work is in how you treat people. The real work is in what you invest your time and energy into. And that's where the magic happens.

OCD Insights (37:57)

That's beautiful. And I think that's such a powerful message, especially for people with OCD, because a lot of the time people with OCD are so caught up in trying to manage their anxiety and trying to get certainty that they forget to actually live their lives. And I think what you're saying is like, your life is happening right now. This moment matters. And the more you can be present to it, the better.

Hansa Bergwall (38:22)

Absolutely. And I think that's what's so beautiful about the practice. Like, every time you get that notification, it's like, okay, you're here right now. This is your life. Are you present to it? Are you living it? Or are you lost in your head?

OCD Insights (38:37)

Yeah. And I think that's where the freedom is. So I want to say thank you so much for being here. I'm very grateful for your time. And before I ask you my final question, I want to remind our listeners that I have a guest application if you have an OCD story that you want to tell. But more importantly, I want to thank you for being so generous with your time and your wisdom. And I really appreciate what you're doing in the world. I think that your work is so important and I'm grateful for it.

Hansa Bergwall (39:14)

Thank you, Samantha. I'm really grateful for you and what you're doing as well. And I'm really glad that you've been using the We Croak app for your clients and that it's been helpful for them. And yeah, I'm grateful for this opportunity to speak with you and your community.

OCD Insights (39:38)

Thank you. And I also want to say that if you're listening to this and you're struggling with existential OCD or death anxiety, I want you to know that you are not alone. And there is help out there. And working with a therapist who specializes in OCD can be incredibly helpful. And I also want to encourage you to check out my other episodes where I talk more deeply about how to treat existential OCD.

Hansa Bergwall (40:04)

And I'll just add, if you are grateful for the app, I think that's such an honor. But if you are not one of those people if this is exactly the right entry point for you don't worry about it keep looking so many times with so many different practical philosophy tools That maybe works for other people. That's why they were talking about them hundreds or thousands of years ago But they weren't right for me. Just keep going find you yourself the tools that work for you find them Life is short and precious find your effective tool

OCD Insights (1:15:18)

Yeah, yeah, it's.

Hansa Bergwall (1:15:39)

This is a great one for me and for a lot of people, but if it isn't yours, know, DNF, do not finish, move on to the next trial.

OCD Insights (1:15:50)

I think that's great. And this has such a low barrier to entry Why not try it, you know? Well, I really appreciate your time. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you would have liked to have talked about or shared and specifically to the audience that might be listening to this podcast?

Hansa Bergwall (1:16:12)

I want to say thank you. It's a joy and an honor to get to speak to a new community. I don't think I've ever spoken directly to this community of people who have OCD. And I'm honestly amazed that something that I made with totally different intentions might be helpful in this specific place.

I would love to hear from you if you try it out, whatever your experience is to any listener out there. I am passionate about how these ideas play out in different situations and can help people. So if you help me understand that better, I'll be grateful. And yeah, thank you for having me on.

OCD Insights (1:17:03)

I'm so grateful for your time. I want to end by asking you, think you could do this off the cuff. What is your favorite quote?

Hansa Bergwall (1:17:14)

hahahaha

OCD Insights (1:17:17)

And if you can't pick one, two will be fine. Two is fine.

Hansa Bergwall (1:17:22)

my god, you're like asking me to pick a baby or something. I have so many in there. I've picked them all out by hand, by the way, over years, every single one of them.

OCD Insights (1:17:41)

Was that your, what did you call that? Your Emily Dickinson approach or test?

Hansa Bergwall (1:17:47)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I was quoting that somewhere that like, it's got to be okay, so it's got to be about, you know, impermanence. It has to be something someone said publicly somewhere, quoted in a newspaper in a book, something like that. And then, you know, Emily Dickinson said, you know it when you feel like it's kind of taking the top of your head right off. So I want to feel a little bit of that. And maybe you won't feel that way for all of them.

OCD Insights (1:17:56)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Hansa Bergwall (1:18:15)

But if it makes it in the app, at least one person felt that way about that for a second. it's so hard to choose.

OCD Insights (1:18:28)

I saw you also have on your website a place to submit quotes, which is really cool.

Hansa Bergwall (1:18:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm adding new ones all the time. Rather than saying my favorite quote because I don't think I can do that. I'm gonna just read the latest quote that I put in there because it's feeling very top of mind today.

OCD Insights (1:19:03)

Okay.

Hansa Bergwall (1:19:08)

"Maybe there in between my pancreas and large intestine is the piddly brook of my soul. It's the ruler by which I reduce all things now, hard edge and splintering from knowledge that used to set a cloth against fevered forehead."

That is by Renee Nicole Good, the poet and young mother that was just killed in Minneapolis by American ICE agents. And I chose that one just because it's been one that's been echoing in my heart recently. You know, someone who definitely wasn't expecting to be gone and now is. And because I immediately found out she was a poet, read her poems and was like, this is very beautiful. I'm so glad this person took time to write a few poems in their life.

OCD Insights (1:20:18)

I got chills. that the same as? Passed the Emily Dickinson.

Hansa Bergwall (1:20:21)

Hahaha

OCD Insights (1:20:28)

Hansa, it's been such a pleasure. I am so grateful and thank you for spending this time with me.

Hansa Bergwall (1:20:37)

Thank you so much, Samantha, and have a great rest of your day.

Samantha Bray, LCSW (1:20:42)

That right angle moment, keep coming back to that, that instant when you notice your mind has gone to what one of my clients calls the bad neighborhood. And that is the fork in the road. I always tell my clients where you get to choose what comes next. get to choose what thought you want to continue thinking the story about. Or do you want to pick up that needle and play a different song on the record?

It's a beautiful thing that Hansa reminded us today. The more you practice becoming aware of where your mind is each moment and gently five times a day just by remembering that this moment matters, that we are not promised tomorrow and we don't want to spend this moment worrying about something that may never happen and allowing it to steal our joy.

If you have an OCD story to tell, I want to hear it. I'm looking for guests who are willing to share their journey, the messy, the real, the human parts of it. And your story could be exactly what someone else needs to feel less alone and to get that, you know, little boost of hope and motivation to get out there and get quality care. And you can apply to be a guest through my website, OCDInsights.com .

and I'll have links in the show notes below. I want to thank Hansa again for being so generous with his time. All the ways you can connect with him and links to his website, his sub stack, his coaching program, and the app are in the links below.

And I want to leave you again with a beautiful song from my dear friend Kevin Sherman. You can find his music at kevinstunes.com. And I want you to listen for these lyrics. The deeper I get into the moment, the less my mind seems to fear. And so the deeper I get into the moment is where I find my thoughts become more clear. Take care, everybody.